Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

Based on the advice of our esteemed legal council, we cannot afford to sustain our own system of forms any longer. We are paying FAR to keep attorneys on staff to review and update the FAR Forms. We also have telephone support available as a consequence of our FAR dues. This is the first and an important step this Board must take to serve our customers to their fullest advantage.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

Are the minutes from the Standard Forms Committee available? Can they be posted on this blog? I would like to see “can’t afford” defined. Is the fee to FAR new? Is this a cost cutting measure or a customer service issue? Thanks Ken

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

We found out on Tuesday, April 29 that FAR was working to combine the FAR and the FAR/BAR contract into one form. Based on this new information, President Patti will recommend to the TBR BOD that they postpone the motion to discontinue the support and maintenance of TBR forms until the September 23rd meeting. This should provide FAR time to combine their forms. However, information still needs to be gathered and each member will have the opportunity to give their opinion. It is incumbent on all members to be familiar with the FAR Contract in order to make an informed decision. Please use this blog to post your comments or send an e-mail to the BOD at bod-forms@TBRnet.org. Thank you, Steven

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

I have used the FAR contract and although I wasn't as familiar with it as our beloved contract, I felt it more general in nature. That may be because of my unfamiliarity with it. I do agree that we need to move to the FAR or FAR/BAR as the case may be. I think waiting is the wise decision.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

I am confused by several statements. Robby says "we can't afford to sustain our own system of forms". How much money would each member save if we converted to the FAR forms? I didn't realize we were paying extra to maintain our own forms.

Also, customer service is mentioned in several different people's statements. If we truly want to serve our customers, it seems we should use a contract that is easy to read (print size, paper size, etc.), easy to understand, easily understood by all parties with no vague general language and specific to our area. In other words, the TBR system of forms!

What has spurred the interest in changing our system to FAR? Is it cost, then please elaborate. Is is customer service? Then I have to disagree.

So far, I have not heard a compelling reason to abandon a highly functioning system. I am always interested in keeping an open mind, especially to improvement. Could someone give a logical, compelling, well-thought-out reason(s) to change what has worked for years and doesn't appear broken?

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

As a matter of clarification and as I have seen it referenced on this board on more than one occasion, I would like to address Immediate Past President Robby Turner's remarks as stated above.

I may be wrong but I'm just guessing that Robby was likely using the term "afford" as a transitive verb, i.e., "to be able to do, spare, or provide something" (can't afford to be late, can't afford the time, does not afford much pleasure) as opposed to "being unable to meet the cost of something without unacceptable difficulty".

I may very well be wrong and only Robby could say for certain but at least that is the way I read it. I offer my apologies in advance to President Turner if I have further complicated matters instead of elucidating them as was my true intent.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

I was going to suggest that concerned members begin reviewing the FAR forms for comparison, but then realized that we don't yet have a comparison since they are working, as we write, to merge the FAR and FAR-BAR forms. I have also heard from Rob Boyd that the "new" forms could come out anywhere from June to September. I would wager that it would be closer to September. Therefore, rather than propose that the Board of Directors defer this decision to September 23rd, perhaps it would be more prudent to propose a deferral to "the first TBR Board of Directors meeting not sooner than 60 days after the new forms are presented for use to the FAR membership." The FAR contact and the FAR-BAR contract are worlds apart in concept and design. There is no telling what the new contract will look like at this point. Further, in addition to the FAR contract currently being 8 pages, as is ours, with a potential for 25+ plus addenda, with plus a different Seller's Property Disclosure form, plus a different listing form, plus many other forms and documents associated with all of these, it will take more than a couple of weeks to review any new forms to decide whether to discontinue our own standard forms.

I agree with Will regarding what Robbie probably meant. At least i think I do. Transitive verbs always gave me trouble, much as those elucids always did.

The bottom line is that the Standard Forms Committee has a long but limited leadership story. Unlike most other committees, this one has had a personality. Perhaps that has been good, perhaps bad. Major changes to this committee are not taken lightly. The second to last meeting of this committee was less than cordial. I missed the last meeting due to being out of town (and I so informed the committee in advance) but did review the agenda that was published. There was no mention of a discussion to discontinue this committee on that agenda. I have been on other committees where matters we have passed for submission to the Board of Directors was not addressed this quickly, even when on the agenda. I think that this matter should have been more thoroughly addressed at the committee level before becoming an issue of this magnitude. Of course, this is just my opinion. As Dennis Millers says, I could be wrong.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

I would like to go on record as saying as a member, co-chair and/or chair of the Standard Forms Committee for the past 20 (or so) years and as this years chair I was not part of the Standard Forms Committee meeting that passed a motion to recommend to the Tallahassee Board of Realtors Board of Directors that we abandon our TBR forms and switch to FAR forms.

Due to an illness I have not been able to participate in the Standard Forms meetings of the last couple of months. This motion was raised at the last meeting without any prior discussion or consideration in other meetings and passed without me having any knowledge of it or any participation in the discussion. It was not an agenda item: therefore not knowing in advance this topic would be discussed those of us not able to be at the meeting had no way to give any input.

Most of the members of the Standard Forms Committee are new or have only served last year and this one. These members are unaware of the past history of the committee and particularly in reference to previous discussions and analysis of the TBR forms vs the FAR forms. About 4 years ago we did a thorough clause by clause comparison to the FAR residential contract and the concensus was that our forms were superior and better suited to our market.

I would have strongly argued against this proposal. I believe that our TBR forms are superior to the FAR forms in both content to our market, organizational approach and technological usage. If there is to be any consideration at all of making a switch, a clause by clause and form by form comparision will need to be done again when the new FAR contract is published.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

Still waiting for the compelling reason TO CHANGE....We've already given many to NOT change. Just wondering----is this an issue the Board of Directors should vote on or should it be put to the membership for a vote? What do our Association docs say about how to make a decision of such magnitude?

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

There is no doubt in my mind that buyers and sellers breathe a sigh of relief when they see our current sales contract. It reads like an honest straight forward document rather than one full of legal jargon that is never quite fully understood. It may be wise to wait to see what improvement is made to the current State FAR Sales Contract before making any move to change what we are doing. Let's hope they are looking closely at ours.

Embrace Intellectual Progressiveness!

First and foremost I believe I should mention how indebted I believe we should all be to Sara Earl, Jan Talent, Linda Dix, Joe and Rob Boyd, and the manner other very gifted and experienced agents whom I may have overlooked that helped to shape the Tallahassee Board of REALTORS® Contract for Sale and Purchase over the last many years. It is undoubtedly a very large part of why TBR is so well respected on every level and clearly a big part of how we came to be the organization we are today. I am proud to be associated with this Board, its membership, and its staff. That having been said, I believe it is now time to CONSIDER a change…

I personally was 100% against changing our well thought out and clearly presented TBRCSP. After all, I was comfortable with it and knew full well how many talented, informed, and generous people had given so freely of their time and expertise to devise said document. I was dead set against it in fact. But then something funny happened. I began to “act” instead of “react”. I resolved to give the matter thoughtful contemplation, educate myself on BOTH sides of the issue, and familiarize myself with the contract that was being suggested in place of the TBRCSP. I also realized that this had absolutely nothing at all to do with me personally, or anyone else personally for that matter, and it had everything to do with the general public and the average consumer.

As we are all essentially their servants (and lucky to be so) I believe we must put the concern of them above those of us. We are bound to act in the public’s best interest and although as I alluded to earlier, I think our contract was created in an unbelievably conscientious and sound fashion, I am not so naïve as to assume that it is better than one that has the full resources of FAR, the entire state of Florida, and a plethora of well educated, informed, experienced and battle tested attorneys. In addition, Tallahassee’s appeal now reaches far beyond our small region and into other areas of the state and nation as a whole and TBR’s footprint continues to encroach on a larger area as well and will likely only get bigger. Surely we have a responsibility to “standardize” a statewide structure for the betterment of ALL Floridians and not just to appease our own personal comfort level here in Tallahassee.

Finally, the first individual who adds some kind of ridiculous post to the tune of “I support so-and-so” or “so-and-so is trying to shove this down our throats”, or basically whoever mentions an individual and not the overall issue risks entirely invalidating any real point they may have and additionally risks subjecting themselves to being assumed as caught up in some silly teen age mentality as in “I’m friends with ‘X’ and ‘Y’ and they don’t like ‘Z’ therefore I don’t like ‘Z’ either”. This approach can not be taken seriously and frankly reeks of insincerity and cliquishness.

Get out of the comfort zone, think about what’s best for TBR and the public in the long run and for goodness sake, if you don’t have the discipline, the wherewithal, or the decency to educate yourself on the issue before speaking to it then do everyone (mostly yourself) a favor and say nothing at all. Wait until you have the knowledge necessary to address the issues and then speak thoughtfully and with candor.

Lastly, make no mistake about it when it comes to switching to a statewide standardized form, the question is in no way “if”, but instead “when”. Change is not always such a bad thing!

I am more than willing to entertain other peoples viewpoints (in fact I encourage them), and I look forward to hearing how others feel in this regard. At present, and I mean this with all due respect to all of those involved, I have yet to hear a compelling reason not to make a change after the FAR contracts have been merged.

Respectfully, these are simply my two cents worth and should only be taken as such. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend…

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

Since we have never had to defend our forms and we are trained and
understand our specific forms, I do not understand the proposal or
consideration of changing our contract. I think we should continue to use what we have.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

I have bought real estate outside of Leon County where the FAR contract was the contract used by the board for that area. The agent I used for my transaction had previously been a realtor with the Tallahassee Board of Realtors and closer for a local title company. When she sat down with my husband and me to write the contract we spent considerable time going over and completing the contract. I found many of the clauses to be quite vague and confusing and felt the need to clarify many of the clauses in writing. She indicated she thought the TBR contract was much easier for the public to understand than the FAR contract. Based on my own experience with the FAR contract and having over 15 years experience with the TBR contract and the many revisions that have occurred to keep our contract up to date with legal challenges, I believe our contract is far superior to the FAR contract (no pun intended). Our contract is much easier to understand, easier to read and I believe buyers and sellers, savvy or not, walk away with a good understanding of what they have agreed to when they execute the TBR contract and other forms.

Our Standard Forms Committee has always worked very closely with our retained board counsel when our forms have been revised or created so I feel very comfortable that we can be successfully defended in a lawsuit with these forms. I think we should acknowledge the fact that maybe there is a reason our forms haven't been challenged in court - - - they are easy to understand by anyone that takes the time to read them.

I agree with Barry Rose when he indicated the decision to consider making this change should be postponed for a period of 60 days after the new FAR contract is made available. We want to have ample opportunity to compare the TBR contract clause by clause with whatever the FAR attorneys create.

Maybe, just maybe, the FAR attorneys will use the TBR forms as a guideline when they are producing their new documents and the decision will be an easy one.

The horse before the cart

Perhaps we could open a few member blogs to several subjects,...it seems we certainly have a lot of folks with much to say!

I will address my concerns in one moment, but first let me say,.. the buzz of discontent or gratitude is just that, a mere buzz. The voices of those of you talking among yourselves do not transcend air waves and enter the minds of those who will make this decision FOR YOU. Just like statistics in sales, a minority of producers do the majority of sales - a minority of members hold the majority of responsibility for decision making. If anyone posting here has not participated in serving the members of this Board, you really must consider the sacrifice of those who do help make decisions and recommendations on your behalf. Kudos to those who have served. Decisions are not made quickly, and each member of this Board knows that they can and should be involved in the direction of their governing bodies. The calls to action and for participation have come time and time again, and few are those who have answered. Perhaps this will spur more member involvement.

Now on to subject, and my humble opinion. I have not served on standard forms and been through the arduous process of making changes over the years. It does seem logical however, to utilize those who helped create these forms, in addition to those who have had experience using them for numbers of years as well as those who have used both the FAR and FARBAR forms, while deliberating such a major change. 25 years is a long track record, and from what I hear, the legal challenge has been avoided thusfar! Maybe due to luck,.. but just maybe because we have had leadership and guidance from the best in the business. Perhaps also hearing from those serving FAR as to how and why they are entertaining consideration of changes might be beneficial as well. That might give us an opportunity to express our concerns with the FAR contracts as well as well as introduce the ways in which we have solved some of the problems with those forms over the years.

I do wonder why the attorneys for FAR have not considered the TBR contract over the years instead of the dinosaur that they must defend. I would be very interested in hearing the statistics on legal challenges to both the FAR and FARBAR contracts.

I have used the FARBAR contract. I will say this,.. thanks to the “loopholes” in that contract I was able to walk away from a transaction 2 days before closing, thankfully. I’m not sure I would have been a fan of it had I been on the other side of that transaction.

I understand the cost of maintaining these forms. I understand the questions and concerns regarding the liability of those who teach and defend this form. I also am grateful that we do provide that to our members. Most boards do not train their members on the alternative contracts. I am willing to pay for this service.

As ONE member, with one voice, I would like to see TBR exercise patience, be completely diligent and delegate a backwards, forwards and sideways review of the new consolidated contract, if it reaches that point, BEFORE we change what has been true to those members of the public and our profession it has served thusfar. Whether it takes 30, 60, 90 or 120 days.. I ask that we take the time to review. Change may be inevitable, but luckily we belong to a Board that listens to it’s members – at least those who take the “buzz” to those who can hear.

Ahead of Schedule

I am very pleased with all of the hard work that our president and board of directors are doing to include the members of TBR with regards to standard forms issue. However I do believe that we are ahead of schedule when it comes to making any decisions about which forms to use until the NAR and FAR/BAR contract are merged and published. I was present at the meeting last Tuesday and as a new broker myself, I was very surprised to hear a lot of the questions and comments that were made by some of the seasoned Realtors and brokers. It confirmed to me that many of them have not read our current contract, not to mention the NAR and FAR/BAR contract, because if they did they would see that the NAR and TBR are very similar. To make a long story short all members especially brokers should be encouraged to read all three contracts because what good is changing forms if we have not took enough time to read and clearly understand any of them.

Duplicate Postings

Please be patient as we clean up some of the "bugs" in this blog. If your entry posts twice, I'll delete the duplicate posting for you. Thanks to all of you for participating!

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

I am personally not in favor of the change to FAR forms. Our TBR contract and associated addendums are easy to understand and have been substantially improved over the 13 years I've been in this business. The changes have been good ones (although it took a while to get used to that counter-offer form!). I haven't had an opportunity to review the current FAR contract, but had examined it in detail a few years ago when I received an offer from an out-of-town Realtor. That Realtor ultimately re-wrote her offer on our TBR contract and had no problem doing so. Having been in the legal field prior to getting into the Real Estate business, I wasn't impressed with the content of the FAR contract. Out of the many transactions I have been associated with over the years I have sold real estate, I've only seen that FAR contract surface for submission from an out of town prospect maybe 3 times - that's over a 13 year period! I have personally NOT seen an increase of use of the FAR contract as was mentioned in one of the notifications I received relating to the issue at hand. With regard to the issue of liability, it would be interesting to compare statistics of how many times the FAR contract has been legally challenged up against statistics of the TBR contract having been legally challenged. I feel as though our contract sets us apart from the rest. I understand that the FAR attorneys might not be able to assist with questions relating to our specific "Board Contract". The reality is, who has 45 minutes to 1 hour to hold on that FAR legal hotline anyway at long distance rates! Every time I've ever called, I ended up hanging up due to extended wait times. I feel like there is no better help than our local attorneys should a problem arise. At last Tuesday's meeting, someone brought up the idea of having our own attorney on staff or on-call so to speak - kind of like a TBR "legal hotline" - to assist us should questions arise relating to our local contract. If money could be allocated for that out of our budget, I think it's certainly worth consideration! I'm sure an attorney could be put on a monthly retainer to answer questions from TBR members should they arise. Like Jennifer mentioned in her narrative, I also was unaware there was a cost associated with "maintaining" our own forms. What costs are being referred to and how would those costs compare to the cost of switching to FAR forms?
In an effort to keep an open mind to change, it would only make sense to wait until the merge of the FAR and FAR/BAR forms in the fall to examine the blended contract up against ours, and then make a decision. My personal preference, however, would be to put it to a membership vote. That way everyone's voice can be heard!

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

All members should be afforded the opportunity to vote.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

The reason the forms have not been "tested" is because there isn't a problem.

You guys have to much time on your hands. Get out there and sell houses or get out of the business. You are running around chasing windmills!

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

I see no reason to fix was is not broken! Lets not change a thing!

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

I seriously hope that our contracts are considered from the buyer and seller's point of view before any change. As they are now, our contracts are easily understood by the average Joe. Just as an example, the costs to be paid by the buyer and seller are very clear using the checked boxes. I find the FAR contracts to be much harder to explain to my clients. The legal jargon and sentance structure of this contract discourages the reader from the get-go! I love our TBR contracts and hope that if a change is made that our clients are the ones who are kept in mind!

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

I was thinking that we needed to change to the FAR forms because our Forms Committee couldn't spend the time to keep them up to date. Having been on the Forms Committee some years ago, I know it is time consuming. After reading these blogs, I am not sure what is causing this change. I have filled out the FAR contract on property outside of TBR's area, and it is not as clear as our contract. I don't think that TBR needs to have a lot of forms replacing FAR forms, but maybe the contract is one area we need to look at, and see if we need our own version.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

Could we lobby part of our forms to Far/Bar for the change?

I'm not looking forward to the thought of learning a new contract, but I am for the change. I had to use the FAR form when TBR's form didn't serve the clients needs. I've taken educational classes out of our area when the subject of the FAR form is brought up I'm not informed. Conforming to the masses is not all bad! At least we should be trained on the form and not hold ours as gospel.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms-Lets wait and see.

It has been said the only thing constant is change. Even as old as I am I am open to change. Like many who have commented I would certainly like to know of what benefit this change will be. If indeed there are significant benefits in making a change then I am for it. If, however, we are changing only for change sake, then I am against it! This sounds much like the political rhetoric we are currently hearing from those running for public office. If indeed we do not know what the new combined or revised FAR/BAR contracrt looks like we should postpone indefinately any change. Tis' better to deal with the Devil we know as opposed to the one we do not know!

Either Stand Behind It or Remain Silent

Do everyone a favor and don't post a comment if your'e unwilling to support your viewpoint by revealing your identity. Otherwise you simply cannot be taken seriously.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

Coming from Central Florida, I practiced real estate in Tampa, Orlando areas and we used both the FAR and Far/Bar forms. The latest revised FAR form was , in my opinion, considerably more user friendly than the older FAR versions. It was updated, one , to include a place to put closing co.'s name, addres and PHONE #, accounts for things like "force majeur", and is very specific in its writing. I would suggest that anyone who has had experience in the past, revist the newly updated FAR form as it is very user friendly. It is easy to attach addenda, and lets face it...it is good enough for the rest of the state, why not for us...? especially with the amount of out of town buyers/ who may be familiar with it already. Anyone who can navigate through the TBR real estate forms will find the FAR and FAR/BAR very user friendly.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

Coming from California where contracts are nothing short of confusing and verbose, I have truly enjoyed the gift we have in TBR's finely crafted contract. Since many have expressed there feelings at length I will try to be brief. (for those of you who know me that is unusual) It is my understanding that our contract has never been challenged. Nothing frightens people quite like the unknown, and frankly, the other contracts fall short in some clauses. With the challenges we are facing right now with the market, do we really need to be making decisions that clearly weigh in more negatively than positive? Do we want yet another hurdle to cross getting up to speed figuring out how best to adequately and safely explain these ambigious clauses to clients? Who by the way are often distrustful of agents enough as it is. It is my understanding that the other contracts have been challenged and not always stood up. I feel serious concern with the complexities that this will raise over all. I want my clients, my company and myself to be as well protected as possible. If permissable, I strongly recommend we put this to a member vote. Let us have a voice and let the majority decide.

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

Libby Allen & others have said it best "My personal preference, however, would be to put it to a membership vote. That way everyone's voice can be heard!"

Indeed, why fix what is not broken? From the rumblings I hear, perhaps this is one committee's politics (in-fighting) & not really a real "issue".

Neil P. Ryder

Re: Discontinue Maintaining and Creating Standard Forms

To the Board of Directors and Steve L: What is the procedure for the membership at the BOD meeting next week to speak about the issues? Will the BOD be able to accomodate all the members who will be there to speak?

I encourage all members to understand the back ground of the all the problems and to speak up individually or as a group with a spokesperson. There are different layers of issues at hand.